I don't want this to be a thread where I ask a vague question and get a vague answer or ask a specific question just to get an answer that I want to hear... but I do want to ask, "when is the right time to look for another role?"
The answer varies, of course.
Definitely when your position is terminated or about to terminate and you have knowledge of that, look for another role, both inside and outside the company. That's pretty obvious.
But what about less-tangible signs that the seasons have changed and it's time to move on?
And what about things that aren't signs? What are some signs that you're in a job, and you really shouldn't complain?
I'll start the discussion in the next post.
Signs that I've seen...
Within a school district (government employer), refusal to accept a transfer to a different location - bad. That's when I decided to change into IT, back in 1995. What should I have seen prior to that?
Any involvement in a news story, either as a participant or on the edges - forget about it. You need to move on. I've seen this twice in my own life, both at the start and towards the end of my first time as a teacher. I should have left after the first time, since that led to 4 years of hell with that employer. But I also saw it in the lives of others. There was a guy that rode along with Michael Irvin (local sports hero) as he partied and then gave his story to a local news station. When the story broke, he left the employer I joined a few weeks later and then, 18 months later, I landed at a company where he was about to leave because that media exposure was catching up to him again.
Which gets me back to that refusal to transfer - that came a few months after a news story broke involving a teacher I was very close to, professionally. The story was about how the principal at that school was doing some shady book-cooking, and the district's response was to protect the guilty and to punish the messenger and anyone that worked in a program she was running. Looking back, I should have been preparing to leave at that time. I *wanted* to stay, but I learned that want != gonna happen.
My last stint as a teacher went better, 11 years, and I avoided the news spotlight pretty neatly. However, when the district started acting in a paranoid and overly-administrative way, my inner alerts went up. I wasn't being targeted personally, but all teachers were being targeted by a more tightly-controlling administration. More meetings with administrators, more emphasis on metrics, creation of metrics that conflicted with each other ("If you're a good teacher, you'll find a way" - translation: "We're going to have a reason to fire you, no matter what you do."), and stuff like that. That made me join with the local teachers' group (no real unions in Texas) in case I needed professional legal representation. I lasted the rest of that year, but half-way into the next one, I knew it was time to go and I bought my CCNA official guide.
In retrospect, I made the right call before it was too late. The last two years where I worked looked like they've taken their toll and I would have been miserable there.
In IT, my first two jobs were contract roles, and I started looking to leave when managers told me that the contract was wrapping up and we weren't all going to be converted to full-time. I got a consulting job and got mad about the huge discrepancy between my bill rate and my compensation rate (false flag - I had forgotten to calculate how my bench time worked into the equation) and how my compensation didn't adjust until my annual review had been filed, which was 3 months late and the adjustment wasn't retroactive *and* the adjustment was peanuts (real flag - administrative lack of efficiency is never a good sign).
At the next employer, I got harassed by a manager of the opposite gender, and that was really tough to go through. I went through with notifying HR and the EEOC so that I would have protection at my current employer, but I transferred to another manager. That manager got fired two weeks later, and I decided to start looking elsewhere at that point. That got me to Microsoft, and I only left that job because of a personal desire to return to teaching (I had also recently lost a close family member, and I wanted a change in my life to help deal with the grieving process). Although, given what was going on at Microsoft, I would likely have walked away from that job because of the way the company chose to deal with stagnant growth by placing increased scrutiny on front-line employees.
So now I am in a job that has ups and downs, a great manager, and a good deal of leeway in much of what I do, but with frustrations connected with a project I'm on. I still really like the project and I'd like to see it through to completion (or until it's canceled or run into the ground), and I'm not running from anything. Is that the way it should be - never jump ship until it's starting to sink? I've never actually walked away from a job when things were at least tolerable. Anyone here ever jump to a new opportunity without anything bugging them at their current employer?
http://packetpushers.net/is-burn-out-why-it-people-change-jobs-so-much/
^^ This article really says it all I remember that from a few years ago.
Great link... and I tend to want to bail around step 3, before I get to the harsher stuff.
Yeah its a great read.
For me its all based on my workload and the projects I have lined up for the next 6 months to a year. If its all grunt work and no complex projects then I consider I will be spinning my wheels and start looking. I also try to keep an open conversation with my boss on what there intention of me is for this period. If it breaks away from what I want to do then I know my time is drawing near.
If networking projects start getting kicked to the back burner or cancelled/denied funding then I consider that management is not seeing the network as a priority.
Last job what triggered it for me was my yearly 1-on-1. I had 3 projects on hold because my boss would not let me spend the time on them nor would she take the time to get me a change window approved for outages. "We have too many projects that take priority for the next 6-12 months"
Another big one for me is leadership stepping up and fighting the battles to keep form other departments walking all over me. If I have to fight someone or a department head for every change or project I run then my give-a-shitter will burn out real quick.
I've had a knack for leaving just in time.
In two separate cases I left just before the company was bought and moved away. In both cases, it just got eerily quiet - that cranky manager that harassed you every day all of the sudden completely stops... there's nothing really going on outside of the normal day-to-day... it may have just been lucky timing on my part... but I just had a feeling.
One of my biggest pet peeves is who I'm surrounded by. If you are going to hold the title of "Engineer" I expect you to have a certain level of base proficiency right out of the gate. I never like to see someone lose their job but you do need to be motivated to learn more about your trade. In my experience the guys that don't want to learn are the first ones to call you in the middle of the night. If management can't come to grips with what needs to be done I start my exit plan.
I should have left my last job WAYYY sooner, I had 3 CCNP level cers, made less than $40k, had at least 1 18 hour day a week (often more), had a boss who was horrible beyond belief (I can tell you stories if you like), a never ending pile of uninteresting work, no input into projects, abusive/lazy co-workers, basically anything bad you can imagine. But they just had me convinced that I sucked and couldn't work anywhere else. Even here at this job I am in the phase 3 stage, but I don't really feel it cause it's sooooo much better than what I use to have. At my current job I can't get an engineer position cause I don't have a degree (or the 20% rase that goes with it), even though I am the go to guy for all network issues. As such I am looking for remote work currently, but no great hurry at all.
Quote from: dlots on May 11, 2015, 12:39:15 PM
I should have left my last job WAYYY sooner, I had 3 CCNP level cers, made less than $40k, had at least 1 18 hour day a week (often more), had a boss who was horrible beyond belief (I can tell you stories if you like), a never ending pile of uninteresting work, no input into projects, abusive/lazy co-workers, basically anything bad you can imagine. But they just had me convinced that I sucked and couldn't work anywhere else. Even here at this job I am in the phase 3 stage, but I don't really feel it cause it's sooooo much better than what I use to have. At my current job I can't get an engineer position cause I don't have a degree (or the 20% rase that goes with it), even though I am the go to guy for all network issues. As such I am looking for remote work currently, but no great hurry at all.
Good God... granted I live in San Diego so cost of living is higher than average here.. but I was making more than 40k just doing desktop support.... no degree... A+ cert I think?
EDIT - I did have some experience though, from believe it or not, Geek Squad. I learned some handy stuff there when I finally got "out of the store and into the bug" (Out of the store position, and into a district-level "double agent" position.) Like I knew how to manually remove viruses without the use of Anti-spyware/anti-virus tools... wish I still remembered how to do that...
That is such a loaded question with so many variables and complexity I would find it hard to narrow down to a single answer. IMO it is better to jump ship before it sinks. Signs to look elsewhere for me are poor (non-competitive) salary, lack of advancement, lack of communication, incompetent co-workers/management. There are of course others but those are tops for me.
Quote from: dlots on May 11, 2015, 12:39:15 PM
I should have left my last job WAYYY sooner, I had 3 CCNP level cers, made less than $40k, had at least 1 18 hour day a week (often more), had a boss who was horrible beyond belief (I can tell you stories if you like), a never ending pile of uninteresting work, no input into projects, abusive/lazy co-workers, basically anything bad you can imagine. But they just had me convinced that I sucked and couldn't work anywhere else. Even here at this job I am in the phase 3 stage, but I don't really feel it cause it's sooooo much better than what I use to have. At my current job I can't get an engineer position cause I don't have a degree (or the 20% rase that goes with it), even though I am the go to guy for all network issues. As such I am looking for remote work currently, but no great hurry at all.
Wow that sounds horrible especially the pay. I am in a rural area with low cost of living and even here with an A+ cert a helpdesk support position pays that much and even more if tier 2 or 3 support.
Quote from: Nerm on May 11, 2015, 02:28:09 PM
That is such a loaded question with so many variables and complexity I would find it hard to narrow down to a single answer. IMO it is better to jump ship before it sinks. Signs to look elsewhere for me are poor (non-competitive) salary, lack of advancement, lack of communication, incompetent co-workers/management. There are of course others but those are tops for me.
Quote from: dlots on May 11, 2015, 12:39:15 PM
I should have left my last job WAYYY sooner, I had 3 CCNP level cers, made less than $40k, had at least 1 18 hour day a week (often more), had a boss who was horrible beyond belief (I can tell you stories if you like), a never ending pile of uninteresting work, no input into projects, abusive/lazy co-workers, basically anything bad you can imagine. But they just had me convinced that I sucked and couldn't work anywhere else. Even here at this job I am in the phase 3 stage, but I don't really feel it cause it's sooooo much better than what I use to have. At my current job I can't get an engineer position cause I don't have a degree (or the 20% rase that goes with it), even though I am the go to guy for all network issues. As such I am looking for remote work currently, but no great hurry at all.
Wow that sounds horrible especially the pay. I am in a rural area with low cost of living and even here with an A+ cert a helpdesk support position pays that much and even more if tier 2 or 3 support.
Yeah... I was making 30k more than that with a single CCNP and a degree, and was told by my current employer before I came on that I was "grossly underpaid". Granted - you'll almost NEVER hear that from an employer, and I was in a sub-contracting opportunity where they tend to charge the prime 2.5x more than they pay you, and I picked up a few other non-Cisco professional-level certs while I was working there.
Were you in a situation like I was where you may have been paid fairly initially, but as your skill set grew there was just no model to compensate that? My last employer didn't act surprised in the least when I handed in my 2-week notice... openly admitted they had no way to compensate and it sucks. Heck, I found out that even if I went into a completely different role, say moving from an engineer to the architect of the world so-to-speak, I could only expect at 5-7% pay increase. That was just policy for that employer. Garbage.
EDIT - I should also mention to be fair though that I have a security clearance so that helps as well.
True... sometimes, you have to go somewhere else to get what the market will pay. I've had that happen to me back in the 90s, with employers giving small percentage "company policy" increases when I could get a 20% increase going to another employer.
So I went to another employer... things were already rough at those places, anyway, so I didn't feel so bad about the moves. Both those firms had me stay home after I gave my two weeks' notice while they changed all the passwords on everything.
Yea I honestly think that the majority of the reason IT especially doesn't seem to see a lot of long-term employment is that the only way to get the fair market pay increases is to jump ship. It is very rare to see a 10% or greater increase from a current employer.
And it's not like you can work out an arrangement with two employers to do one year on, one year off just to get bigger salary bumps.
But, eventually, the pay tops out. That's when people either get comfortable where they are or consider management tracks.
Yep - that's a very normal practice. I've seen guys leave an employer for 6 months, and come back making almost twice as much as before they had left. It's just silly, and something I think that is VERY easily addressable. That's just yet another instance where the unintelligent application of policy/procedure gets in their own way to retaining skilled IT guys.
I can totally understand it for lateral moves.. but when you make a northbound move - example, NOC tech to engineer, engineer to architect, etc. - I feel that warrants more than 5-7%... lord knows you get WAY more than just 5-7% more responsibility...
EDIT - OK - /RantOn I mean christ man - that engineer probably put in extra hours improving their skill set. Not shit they necessarily wanted to do in their off-time, but did to be better at their job and help their company be successful! When they're ready to move on to that next level, encourage, celebrate, and reward that! It's hard work and deserves more than a slap-in-the-face pay raise completely overshadowed by the increased weight of responsibility dropped on their shoulders! Ugh! :angry: :angry: :angry:
/RantOff
When I was hired into that department I was hired cause I could get along with anyone, had a nack for picking stuff up, and the network engineers couldn't get along with anyone, or get anything done, so within 2-3 years I went from not knowing what a router or switch did to a CCNP doing the majority of the work.
After today's meetings, I'm tempted to flip out and call the recruiters BUT...
Someone, somewhere, in the company I'd wind up at, is tired of putting up with all the crap going on over there.
A day of bad meetings does not make a justification to start a job search. Probably also not a week. A month, though... maybe yes.
I tend to leave when the problems I'm facing are beyond my control and the people I've informed about the problems (i.e. managers) aren't doing anything about it. I've left past jobs because of lack of leadership (e.g. managers with no balls), lack of ownership, or lack of direction. I love my job, love what I do, and I'm an overachiever. But sadly my passion coupled with the issues above are a recipe for personal disaster!
I'll admit that I've thought about taking a break from IT and trying something different...but at the end of the day I really love tech.
Quote from: routerdork on May 11, 2015, 10:27:13 AM
One of my biggest pet peeves is who I'm surrounded by. If you are going to hold the title of "Engineer" I expect you to have a certain level of base proficiency right out of the gate. I never like to see someone lose their job but you do need to be motivated to learn more about your trade. In my experience the guys that don't want to learn are the first ones to call you in the middle of the night. If management can't come to grips with what needs to be done I start my exit plan.
One of the guys on my teams says that he can't troubleshoot a certain technology because he "hasn't received training on that product yet." Neither did the rest of us and we have to support it.
Sometimes I wonder if the better skill to learn is the skill of not giving a shit, underachieving, playing dumb, and not take any initiative on anything...
@deanwebb: Why didn't you go into private schools? Are the education politics the same?
Last thing first: Private schools either pay less or have lots more pushy parent politics. Or both. If I was drawing a state pension, I'd do private school.
QuoteSometimes I wonder if the better skill to learn is the skill of not giving a shit, underachieving, playing dumb, and not take any initiative on anything...
That's survival, right there, and it's not pretty. But it is what a lot of guys "that have been here forever" are good at doing, even though the managers wish that they would be real go-getters.
Problem is that the go-getters care about things, which is why they go and get, and that eventually bangs heads with managers when they need someone to *not* care because they've cut a budget and are going with fast and cheap instead of fast and good... or they're hammered by a schedule because they're going for good and cheap.
Managers always want fast, cheap, and good, and passionate guys get into arguments when they tell the truth and say "you can only have two." The guys with broken giveashitters, they plod along, don't feel pressure from managers on cost or timelines, and are kept on staff because all the passionate guys quit and all the managers got fired.
Thanks to that1guy15 for giving us the term "giveashitter". It's really catching on around here.
Quote from: dlots on May 12, 2015, 01:41:35 PM
When I was hired into that department I was hired cause I could get along with anyone, had a nack for picking stuff up, and the network engineers couldn't get along with anyone, or get anything done, so within 2-3 years I went from not knowing what a router or switch did to a CCNP doing the majority of the work.
Yeah - so sounds like the typical situation... I'm assuming you had that pay the entire time. Damn shame, but they make their own bed so at one point or another they'll have to sleep in it.
Quote from: deanwebb on May 12, 2015, 04:54:52 PM
Someone, somewhere, in the company I'd wind up at, is tired of putting up with all the crap going on over there.
This. The thing to keep in mind is it is different crap, but there is always crap. My previous job there was no budget for anything. We were running 2600 routers, 3550 switches, and what ever else we could cobble together. However, I was the final say on anything networking as long as the end user got what they needed. Even my boss didn't care as long as nobody was yelling at him. My new job has plenty of budget, and we work with cool new stuff. However, the change control process is crazy. Everyone gets a say in the design, and everyone's opinion is considered important and valid. Explaining to a system admin why I don't want to use BGP for a DMVPN solution is painful. Even more painful is documenting the testing I did in the lab to show that EIGRP works better than BGP for this solution. At some point the "it takes a village" approach will drive me to find a new job, and that job will require me to deal with some different crap which will then eventually drive me to move on again.
-Otanx