VAR and Vendor Careers

[deanwebb]

I've heard people talk about working for VARs and working for Vendors... what are the kinds of jobs in each area, and which ones are a step up from, say, a Level 3 Engineer? How many years of experience go with these jobs? What's the travel like? Work from home? Sales commissions? What's it like over there, in the land of VARs and vendors?

[vito_corleone]

Oh, oh, I can answer this one! I've worked at three (kind of four or five if you count acquisitions) partners. "Level 3 engineer" doesn't translate well since titles vary so wildly. I'll assume you mean someone with ~5 years, maybe CCNP-level (actual) knowledge, and a strong background in small to large enterprise We'll call this person Bob.

Bob would likely start as a mid-level engineer at one of the bigger VARs
Bob's salary in my area (Florida) would likely be $80-90k
Bob would assist a senior engineer on large projects
Bob would run his own small to medium projects
Bob would, assuming he does well, likely move to senior engineer one to two years after starting at mid-level
Bob's salary would likely be $95-105k when he made senior
Bob would start running large projects and mentoring junior to mid-level engineers
Bob may, depending on the size and methodology of the VAR, also assist with pre-sales engagements

I'd say that's pretty close at most medium to large VARs. The numbers and timelines could vary significantly though. A lot of engineers stop here, move to management, or move to pre-sales. I took the pre-sales route and it's much different than delivery, but I like it a lot better. I don't get much hands on, but I get to do a ton more design, and really focus on applying technology to a business problem.

Compensation varies a lot as well, but I'd say (in my area), delivery guys generally top out around $150k - let's call $125k reasonable for a really solid delivery guy. Obviously many won't necessarily make it that high, and some will make it higher. Pre-sales is a bit different as it's usually tied to sales metrics. I'd say pre-sales guys (in my area) will generally top out around $200k - I'd say $150k for a solid pre-sales guy. Both of those numbers are total compensation - base pay will vary a ton. I know people who are way under all these numbers and I know a few people who are way past these numbers, so don't take these as all that accurate, though I don't think they should be TOO far off.

I haven't worked on the manufacturer side, but I know a ton of people who have and currently do. Most of my information comes from people at Cisco, but I've known some guys at other smaller places. A Cisco SE will have a similar role and salary to a VAR pre-sales engineer. I think a Cisco SE has it a bit easier as there's no labor to scope and most partner engineers will take the brunt of the work on the design side. Cisco SEs are generalists also - this isn't appealing to me. They're expected to be broad but not deep, which means they'll talk about R/S, Security, Voice, etc, and bring in a specialist when needed.  The specialist is (typically) a CSE. IMO, these guys have one of the best jobs in all of IT. They're the rockstars in x technology - Enterprise Networking, Security, Mobility, etc. They get to go an inch wide and a mile deep - they can make huge money too. Other manufacturers are similar, but few have a portfolio as wide as Cisco's, so they probably won't be broken up as much.

So those are the mechanics of the VAR and manufacturer worlds as I've experienced them. If you want a personal answer, I'd say the VAR world is the best place to be (other than possibly a CSE, or a TME (technical guy who works directly for a BU) at a manufacturer). I've worked SMB, SP, huge enterprise and now VAR. Enterprise is, in my experience, slow, monotonous and usually much more ops than engineering. My short SP exposure was cool, but it was also slow and monotonous. Consulting is very dynamic. This is good and bad - you're constantly learning and doing new stuff, which can be rewarding and fulfilling, but it's VERY sink or swim. Many people don't like the stress of it, or being pulled in multiple directions at once.

Feel free to ask any questions and sorry for the wall of text.

TLDR: Working for a VAR is amazing, pre-sales is great and usually where the money is.

[deanwebb]

I'm in the big global enterprise, so I do get to play with a lot of toys (4-way next gen firewall head-to-head testing later this year!) and compensation is above average for the area (DFW Metro area, already a good-paying area, relative to cost of living). It's totally tons better than the one-guy-does-all SMB job I had in 2013, and I do get to have some ownership of the stuff I work on. Because it's a big global, my role is almost like that of an internal consultant for the company: I'm attached to projects and I train the guys that come in to do the operations.

But I am enamored of the vendor pre-sales engineer role. Doing that doesn't mean total pigeonholing - one has to be aware of technologies that interact with it - but it does look like it compartmentalizes a person if it's a vendor with a limited product range. Consider being a CheckPoint guy: you're gonna move firewalls, that's my guess. Lots and lots of firewalls.

I've got a friend now working for a VAR that's angling to become a pre-sales guy for a vendor. I wanna be him when I grow up, I guess.

[vito_corleone]

Yeah, the upper positions in a large enterprise are very similar to a pre-sales role. Mostly design, and you're really selling your design. Theoretically less challenges too (though, it's really just different challenges, not less).

I think my preference for VAR pre-sales over a very senior large enterprise gig is mostly about seeing so many different networks and scenarios. Enterprises typically work in refresh cycles. The bigger the shop, the more technologies and potential for refreshes, but they're also more risk-averse, of course. On the VAR side, you get to see different networks, different scenarios and different problems on a weekly, and sometimes daily, basis.

Something else I forgot to mention is the access you get to the manufacturer's inside info. You obviously get more info working for a manufacturer, but we get to see quite a bit on the VAR side. That's one of my favorite aspects of the job.

[NetworkGroover]

Oh, oh, I can answer this one! I've worked at three (kind of four or five if you count acquisitions) partners. "Level 3 engineer" doesn't translate well since titles vary so wildly. I'll assume you mean someone with ~5 years, maybe CCNP-level (actual) knowledge, and a strong background in small to large enterprise We'll call this person Bob.

Bob would likely start as a mid-level engineer at one of the bigger VARs
Bob's salary in my area (Florida) would likely be $80-90k
Bob would assist a senior engineer on large projects
Bob would run his own small to medium projects
Bob would, assuming he does well, likely move to senior engineer one to two years after starting at mid-level
Bob's salary would likely be $95-105k when he made senior
Bob would start running large projects and mentoring junior to mid-level engineers
Bob may, depending on the size and methodology of the VAR, also assist with pre-sales engagements

I'd say that's pretty close at most medium to large VARs. The numbers and timelines could vary significantly though. A lot of engineers stop here, move to management, or move to pre-sales. I took the pre-sales route and it's much different than delivery, but I like it a lot better. I don't get much hands on, but I get to do a ton more design, and really focus on applying technology to a business problem.

Compensation varies a lot as well, but I'd say (in my area), delivery guys generally top out around $150k - let's call $125k reasonable for a really solid delivery guy. Obviously many won't necessarily make it that high, and some will make it higher. Pre-sales is a bit different as it's usually tied to sales metrics. I'd say pre-sales guys (in my area) will generally top out around $200k - I'd say $150k for a solid pre-sales guy. Both of those numbers are total compensation - base pay will vary a ton. I know people who are way under all these numbers and I know a few people who are way past these numbers, so don't take these as all that accurate, though I don't think they should be TOO far off.

I haven't worked on the manufacturer side, but I know a ton of people who have and currently do. Most of my information comes from people at Cisco, but I've known some guys at other smaller places. A Cisco SE will have a similar role and salary to a VAR pre-sales engineer. I think a Cisco SE has it a bit easier as there's no labor to scope and most partner engineers will take the brunt of the work on the design side. Cisco SEs are generalists also - this isn't appealing to me. They're expected to be broad but not deep, which means they'll talk about R/S, Security, Voice, etc, and bring in a specialist when needed.  The specialist is (typically) a CSE. IMO, these guys have one of the best jobs in all of IT. They're the rockstars in x technology - Enterprise Networking, Security, Mobility, etc. They get to go an inch wide and a mile deep - they can make huge money too. Other manufacturers are similar, but few have a portfolio as wide as Cisco's, so they probably won't be broken up as much.

So those are the mechanics of the VAR and manufacturer worlds as I've experienced them. If you want a personal answer, I'd say the VAR world is the best place to be (other than possibly a CSE, or a TME (technical guy who works directly for a BU) at a manufacturer). I've worked SMB, SP, huge enterprise and now VAR. Enterprise is, in my experience, slow, monotonous and usually much more ops than engineering. My short SP exposure was cool, but it was also slow and monotonous. Consulting is very dynamic. This is good and bad - you're constantly learning and doing new stuff, which can be rewarding and fulfilling, but it's VERY sink or swim. Many people don't like the stress of it, or being pulled in multiple directions at once.

Feel free to ask any questions and sorry for the wall of text.

TLDR: Working for a VAR is amazing, pre-sales is great and usually where the money is.

Interesting insight.  Some of the things you mention about consulting is how I feel about working for a vendor - although I've only worked for one and it sounds a little different from what you describe at Cisco.  Thanks for sharing.

[wintermute000]

good input Vito.

I got into a VAR/Provider for those reasons exactly. However the opportunity that came up was within the managed services arm, embedded in one of their most difficult accounts (they were up front about the customer being difficult, and I, full of confidence, thought nah can't be that bad... surely...)


I'll sweat it out for a year I reasoned, esp. as they were paying good dollars. The job description looked good on paper as well.

Now a year later I'm starting to get to the end of my rope re: surviving an operational role. But in the meantime I hope I've built up enough cred within the org to be able to start angling for some moves into professional services or solutions and start doing the stuff you get to do. They're supposed to get me out and my replacement is unofficially lined up (introduced to client and everything) but the wheels of the megacorps turn slowly and looks like I've still got at least another 3 weeks to go of hell.

I really, really miss designing stuff and doing whiteboard voodoo (here's a pretty diagram, let me build it, look at the pretty diagram).


If there's one thing I have learnt, is that once you earn your stripes and have the track record and alphabet soup combo, don't ever settle for an operations job. They grind you down and don't let you do anything remotely interesting.


Note: in case anyone is getting the wrong idea, NO ITS NOT HP OR IBM lololol its not THAT bad

[vito_corleone]

Oh, that's something I completely ignored. The Managed Services group has been a big part of the VARs I've worked for. I'm glad you posted your experience because mine has been very limited. I knew a lot of the MS guys but I don't really know what their day-to-day was like other than being on the phone a lot and a ton of tickets. I've heard that working for MSPs can be fun though.

[vito_corleone]

Interesting insight.  Some of the things you mention about consulting is how I feel about working for a vendor - although I've only worked for one and it sounds a little different from what you describe at Cisco.  Thanks for sharing.

Which aspects? I don't know anyone inside your company. I do know some people at Palo Alto and Riverbed, which I imagine would run similarly as they (and you) are more focused on a single area versus Cisco's (and Juniper, HP, etc) monstrous portfolio.

[NetworkGroover]

Oh, that's something I completely ignored. The Managed Services group has been a big part of the VARs I've worked for. I'm glad you posted your experience because mine has been very limited. I knew a lot of the MS guys but I don't really know what their day-to-day was like other than being on the phone a lot and a ton of tickets. I've heard that working for MSPs can be fun though.

I have a good friend who works for a MSP - I should ask him.  From the sounds of it though he's pretty much the IT guy sitting onsite at a customer location.

[mynd]

Oh, that's something I completely ignored. The Managed Services group has been a big part of the VARs I've worked for. I'm glad you posted your experience because mine has been very limited. I knew a lot of the MS guys but I don't really know what their day-to-day was like other than being on the phone a lot and a ton of tickets. I've heard that working for MSPs can be fun though.

I have a good friend who works for a MSP - I should ask him.  From the sounds of it though he's pretty much the IT guy sitting onsite at a customer location.

This sounds a lot like staff augmentation. I did a bit of that at my first IT gig, but I was a low level tech that didn't get to do much at all

[NetworkGroover]

Interesting insight.  Some of the things you mention about consulting is how I feel about working for a vendor - although I've only worked for one and it sounds a little different from what you describe at Cisco.  Thanks for sharing.

Which aspects? I don't know anyone inside your company. I do know some people at Palo Alto and Riverbed, which I imagine would run similarly as they (and you) are more focused on a single area versus Cisco's (and Juniper, HP, etc) monstrous portfolio.

Pretty much all of what you mentioned - dynamic, sink or swim, and pulled in multiple directions.

[NetworkGroover]

Oh, that's something I completely ignored. The Managed Services group has been a big part of the VARs I've worked for. I'm glad you posted your experience because mine has been very limited. I knew a lot of the MS guys but I don't really know what their day-to-day was like other than being on the phone a lot and a ton of tickets. I've heard that working for MSPs can be fun though.

I have a good friend who works for a MSP - I should ask him.  From the sounds of it though he's pretty much the IT guy sitting onsite at a customer location.

This sounds a lot like staff augmentation. I did a bit of that at my first IT gig, but I was a low level tech that didn't get to do much at all

Yeah it does.  I think their structure is they have some guys, like my friend, stay on site to handle stuff locally, and then a few guys above that level that handle/coordinate multiple accounts.  From my friend's Twitter post, it sounds like he gets to do a lot - he's been focusing on a lot of security stuff lately and seems like he's getting some good experience under his belt.

[vito_corleone]

This sounds a lot like staff augmentation.

Yeah, exactly. I had to do a staff aug when I first started with a VAR. IMO, it's terrible.

[vito_corleone]

Pretty much all of what you mentioned - dynamic, sink or swim, and pulled in multiple directions.

For the record, I was talking about the delivery side, not pre-sales. You're pre-sales (SE), right? I'm not saying what we do isn't as dynamic or is more forgiving than delivery, but I do think delivery is more of an extreme. Pre-sales guys aren't hitting issues during a 4am cut while customers are over their shoulders freaking out. I think pre-sales is much, much less stressful than delivery. The stakes are high - if mess up a design/BOM/SOW because I missed (or misunderstood) something on a customer's network, it's bad, but it's usually less stressful than when I was a delivery guy on those late cuts when something goes wrong. I think pre-sales is less fulfilling too though, so nothing is perfect.

[NetworkGroover]

Pretty much all of what you mentioned - dynamic, sink or swim, and pulled in multiple directions.

For the record, I was talking about the delivery side, not pre-sales. You're pre-sales (SE), right? I'm not saying what we do isn't as dynamic or is more forgiving than delivery, but I do think delivery is more of an extreme. Pre-sales guys aren't hitting issues during a 4am cut while customers are over their shoulders freaking out. I think pre-sales is much, much less stressful than delivery. The stakes are high - if mess up a design/BOM/SOW because I missed (or misunderstood) something on a customer's network, it's bad, but it's usually less stressful than when I was a delivery guy on those late cuts when something goes wrong. I think pre-sales is less fulfilling too though, so nothing is perfect.

Ah.  I see what you mean, but let me add that there isn't much of a concept of "pre-sales" where I work that I've noticed.  At least not in the official sense.  I give presentations, I design, I often go onsite to help with setup and testing, and I provide support afterwards as needed.  So if a customer demanded we have someone available/onsite during a cutover, that's going to be me as well.  We're also required to do technical documentation (whitepapers, TOIs, etc.).  Not that I'm trying to brag - just trying to convey the scope of our work.  About it being fulfilling... that's something I always wonder about because I feel like I'd rather be an Ops guy so I can "own" something rather than just building a network and handing it over.. but after reading what you stated earlier and from what a friend has told me, it sounds like I'm better off where I am.